Thoughts stemming from an argument I'm having with T&U at teh Mothership. Here's teh basis.

I have now waded through both the Blag Hag guest post and clarification as well as the Angel of Harlots reply and Update^2 and the Butterflies and Wheels post. For me the audio on the YouTube has been replaced by classical music. WTF?!

Here's my read on what happened. Some atheist guys think that if a girl is also an atheist, they are totes "fair game". Not "fair game" as in okay to hit on sense, but "fair game" in the treat them as huntable animals sense. Some atheist women think this is fucked up bullshit that needs to stop. Some atheist guys agree. Some atheist guys think that the offended women are being oversensitive and should just get over it. Some atheists guys think that they totes aren't treating women like animals - that they are just following their biology. Some people think those atheist guys are full of shit.

D-KW's Pronouncements About Atheist Pear-gate

1. d00d, you share some interests with that girl, that's great. You want to ask her out - go ahead. But No means No. Don't hound her. Don't harass her. If she's not interested - she is not interested. Also too, staring at b00bies is only okay when you have permission or are watching teh interjizz pr0ns. Look, I likes teh BOOBIES too. Lots. But if you are face to face with someone - be face to face.

Here's a bit to halp you to understand - imagine someone staring at your package while you are talking to them. No eye contact, they are just constantly staring at your crotch. Now imagine if that someone was your mom**. Fucking weird huh? Gross and creepy. That's kinda how those women feel.

PROTIP - just because you find them attractive, that doesn't meant the feelings are necessarily reciprocated. Not to say that you are hideous, although if you need this advice, you are at least a little bit hideous. There could be any number of reasons apart from your boorish and creepy behaviour that's turning them off.

2. Fuck you with your "biological imperative" bullshit. You know what? Thems womens are feeling threatened by you, and it would be following their "biological imperative" to kill you. Huh, not such a grate argument no mores is it?

3. Are the hypersensitive feminists over-reacting? WHO FUCKING CARES? They are upset and hurt and creeped out and frustrated and THESE FEELINGS ARE REAL. You don't have to understand them, I don't have to understand them, even the women going through them don't have to understand them. It's not rocket science here. It doesn't matter if their responses are justified or not (although from the evidence I've been able to check out, I would say they are). Really it doesn't make no nevermind. Stop trying to argue about it.

Seriously. Does. Not. Matter. When you are told, plainly and simply that what you are doing is causing pain - then you stop. Otherwise you either don't give a shit about the folks you are hurting or you think they are lying (although I suppose there's the option that you are a sadistic shitbag that likes hurting others - but I like to believe that conservatives don't read my blog).

If it's case 1. and you don't care, well then you're a fucking asshole - and not in the good way. Get some help. Really. Unhealthy behaviour. Sign of psychopathy. Very Not Good. If it's case two and you think you're being trolled - that people are claiming to be hurt as some sort of powerplay - you had better hope to whatever higher power you don't believe in that you are right, because otherwise you just flagged yourself as a sociopathic asshole over a hunch. Also what one might think of as irrational behaviour.

5. The number 4 is unlucky.

6. What about the feelings of the men? It hurts to be called a chauvinist pig just because you're socially inept and have a fondness for BOOBIES. Yeah, your feelings are real too. But unless you can articulate them, express what your issues are - what the fuck is anyone supposed to do about them? And that's where the whole adult discussion part takes place. And sometimes your feelings are not that important. That you feel put upon for having to not stare at the hot chick - and yes this is despite the fact that she obviously spent a lot of time and effort to make herself so attractive - not as important as her feeling like she is going to be molested. Thems the breaks. Don't leer.

7. But those feelings are real too. Guys get frustrated all the time about all sorts of stuff. And the feeling of resentment at all of womankind is a real thing that some guys experience from time to time. Not unlike how sometimes some women sometimes have a real resentment towards all men. And, at least in my opinion, it does not matter if those feelings are rational or justified. Does. Not. Matter.

I'm not trying to even imply that women should put up with getting ogled. That's just dumb. I'm just pointing out that the folks in the position of privilege are still human beings with real feelings and if you really think "tough shit, I don't care a whit if those privileged jerkwads are upset" then you are also in the fucking asshole group.

8. So that should be the basis for the conversation. Yeah, here I am idealistically suggesting that people should honestly and openly discuss their feelings and reactions to stuff and then figure out how to go forward together. Requires that all sides engage honestly and with respect for each other.

This is why I had to admit error in that argument with T&U. Read through the Pharyngula thread and look out for Attendee. The existence of Men's Rights Advocates wrecks it. T&U called them douchebags, but douchebags are way more useful. We're talking about damaged people who have a world-view that is unmoored from reality. They literally can not comprehend that evidence discrediting their ideology can be real. Must be part of a conspiracy. They are the Young Earth Creationists of gender relations. Only difference is that Creationists are motivated by their unwavering devotion to God and MRA's are motivated by their hatred of women. It's not a plus for them. And they poison the well and make intelligent discussions about stuff like this impossible or very near to it.

* This is true. I do love BOOBIES. And maybe it is part of a cowardly and cheap ploy to keep intelligent women from reading this post and then challenging me on my beliefs. Then again maybe it's a trigger alert of it's own, warning that the post contains its fair share of chauvinism.

** This is true too, your mom stares at my package all the time.


vacuumslayer said...

I don't think there's anything wrong with liking boobies and saying you like them. I do think there's something wrong with thinking that's the only thing worth liking about women.

Dragon-King Wangchuck said...

Oh dear. Have I gone so far as to give the impression that I only care about teh BOOBIES? I mean, whether or not it's true, it is certainly not the image I want to present.

vacuumslayer said...

Nah. I dont think you would have gone to the trouble to write this entry...and apparently really think about what you were writing...and even question your own motives a bit...if you were just about the boobies.

TruculentandUnreliable said...

I know I'm right. :)

Just kidding. Thanks for this.

And actually, I do agree with this:

I'm just pointing out that the folks in the position of privilege are still human beings with real feelings and if you really think "tough shit, I don't care a whit if those privileged jerkwads are upset" then you are also in the fucking asshole group.

As I said before, I'm interested in how Patriarchy Hurts Men Too, because it really does. BUT I'm not going to make those jerkwads' feelings more important than my own, you know? And sometimes on Teh Internets, it's hard to assess who is being sincere and who is being a trolling dickhead, so I think that if people see what they perceive to be a disproportionately negative response to honest questions, it's because feminists are so used to douchebags trotting up and arguing in bad faith, and aren't that stoked about suffering fools gladly.

And BOOBIES are awesome. They're all bouncy and shit.

Big Bad Bald Bastard said...

I was really hoping for 8. 8. I forgot what 8. was for!

ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said...

"On Boobies, and the Staring At Them" by DKW

Substance McGravitas said...

What's this all about again? Can someone summarize it?

Dragon-King Wangchuck said...

You want a summary? No problem.


vacuumslayer said...

"5. The number 4 is unlucky"

This is offensive, btw. Screw you, you fourist asshole.

Dragon-King Wangchuck said...

Screw you, you fourist asshole.

Hey, don't blame me. The number 4 is unlucky.

vacuumslayer said...

I'll be damned. I had no idea that was a thing. I thought you just doing your usual DK-W snarky/funny thing. Learn something new every day...